No more C-Dory Factory service, Seattle area

Bob, I agree completely that clearly QC is lacking currently at the factory. Unfortunately when you're writing on a board, you don't always get everything across the first time you write it. I'm all for this switch as long as C-Dory is doing it to improve their boat building core business. That improvement is from the beginning of the process to the end, right up to the moment that boat gets loaded on a truck to be shipped to a dealer. And a key component of the process are quality checks along the entire manufacturying process, not just at the end of it all. It's much easier to ensure the quality is up to par in stages compared to trying to go over everything at the very end.

Maybe the employees aren't trained properly on techniques. Sure would be interesting to have the perspective of an employee on how they think things are going at the factory. Do they believe they have received proper training to do their job to the best they can? I struggle with this problem everyday at my job. If our sales people would just learn the system they're selling, a lot of my problems would go away. It's not the case of them not being trained on it, it's the case of them not using the system, so they don't retain what they've learned. Maybe the factory needs to do some remedial training to ensure employees are doing processes correctly. Fact is, it's cheaper to have it done right the first time than to have to fix it down the road because you have the hard cost of the fix and the soft cost of lack of consumer confidence. I'd argue that the soft costs will make or break a company much quicker than the hard costs will. Hopefully this change will be for the good and all will benefit from it.

Jack
 
My second concern relates to the information flow (emphasis added) between those performing the repairs and those building/designing the boats. My sense is that a lot of useful information for future design changes and/or QA/QC issues will be lost when all repairs are off site from the builders. The factory has learned a lot from both fixing problems and from seeing how others modify their boats. Much of the latter can be learned from this site, but IMHO there's no substitute for having close contact between builders/designers and the customers and people who are doing repair work.
Click to expand...

I'm still a wannabe, but I'll weigh in on this anyway.

I have an older Honda Goldwing, and spent a couple years ('03 - '05) reading a web forum similar to this one (although regrettably not nearly as civil much of the time). The newer (1800) Goldwing had several signficant problems. One was an overheating problem at slow speeds, even with moderate to cool outside temps. By time this issue was filtered through corporate 'Honda America', and 'Honda Japan', and all their marketing wizards, and legal eagles, it had been euphemistically attributed to 'riding in parade mode'. (?!) (You can imagine how satisfying this is to the guy who is commuting in rush-hour traffic on his $20K top-of-the-line flagship of Honda motorcycles . . . !) Keep in mind, this is a water-cooled, 6-cyl, 1800-cc engine. Remind me again; why did we put a water-cooled engine (and fan) on it? Wasn't it to keep it cool at low speeds, which cannot be accomplished with air cooling?

Over the first year or so, the 'official' word from Honda's national customer service line, and the local dealers was, "Overheating?? You've got to be kidding! No one's ever had that problem before . . . . " OR, "Yes, sometimes they get into the 'red zone', but 'we don't consider it really overheated unless it actually spews out cooling fluid.' "Excuse me?? You mean you are actually advocating riding it in the red zone????? Would you put that in writing for me so I can be sure I am not ruining my engine and/or voiding my warranty?" "Well, no, we can't do THAT . . . "

Point is, that YEARS after this was first identified, and dozens of forum reports, Honda Customer Service was still saying, presumably with a straight face, that 'we've only had a couple of reports of that, and that was two years ago.' So, either Honda has been grossly negligent in connecting the dots, or they purposely designed a system that provided them with 'plausible deniability'. The end result is the same.

BTW, all along, they have denigrated 'all those forums out there that always bash our products . . . ' And they claim that their dealership policies and agreements literally stem from their post-war expansion in the late 1950's and early 60's.

C-Dory is an entirely different animal. They are much smaller than Honda, of course. Furthermore, by accepting the C-Dory community (and its on-line forums), they appear to be embracing a 'new millennium' marketing/sales/service model, rather than an outdated mid-century model.

This strategy, of course, can work both ways. In the case of C-Dory I can emphatically state that the ONLY reason I am dying to get a C-Dory is because of this site.. I have learned about ALL the good points, and about the short list of problems. I have been to C-Dory dinners, and sat next to Caty Mae just after her leaking hull problem was resolved. I have been invited out on individual boats, and attended the Cathlamet, WA gathering last April. I can't imagine what it would cost a small company to develop and pay for such an extensive marketing team.

Now, going back to Roger's point.
I suggest that EVERY SINGLE service issue be reported IN REAL TIME to the C-Dory factory. I mean this quite literally. This could be accomplished simply and easily with an on-line time-stamped incident # at the time of the service request. All requests that are handled in a timely manner just fade into the log books. Unresolved problems appear on an 'aging list' at the factory.

Now, of course, everyone has to be reasonable here, and tolerant of small dealerships who are trying to do their best for everyone. (Owners should be able and willing to handle a drill, a screwdriver, a caulking gun, and a DMM.) But it would certainly be advisable if these unresolved problems came to the attention of the C-Dory factory BEFORE they became topics of conversation on this forum.

AND RECURRING PROBLEMS SHOULD IMMEDIATELY TRIGGER REVISED QA PROCEDURES AT THE FACTORY. (I'm sure going to inquire very carefully about all the loose fittings on the Wallas stoves before taking delivery . . . )

Yeah, I KNOW this is a lot of blathering, but it's a nice day out, and I DON'T HAVE A BOAT TO GO OUT ON . . . !

Bottom line - C-Dory is a fantastic boat. The factory may experience some growing pains, but their commitment to their owners is second to none. From what I've read, their dealers are highly respected (and I have access to both Les and Sportcraft, so I'm happy). Let's just hope that explicit attention is paid to the information flow aspect of this new arrangement.

OK, now I'll go out and plant those bulbs my wife has been talking about . . .

e.g.
 
We seem to see a lot of postings from new C-Dory owners who are afflicted with problems caused by poor quality control at the factory. After picking up my new 22 Cruiser in May I soon found three annoying defects, and my wife found one that still irritates her.

The panels that cover the gas tanks were fastened to aluminum angle pieces with wood screws in holes that were too large. Several of the screws just fell out. There were two nut and bolt fasteners on the same panels with no locks. They also just vibrated loose and fell off. The panels were so loose they generated a loud vibrating sound of the excedrin headache variety.

The water tank gauge tube was kinked inside the seat base. The kink was bad enough that the water level in the gauge never moved at all.
The antifreeze stuck in the tube glowed pink until repairs could be made.

There were many sharp fiberglass strands sticking out from the cabin overhead above the bunk all carefully painted with white finishing coat.

Becky found white caulk all over the boat on the door, the dash and all over the pilot house deck. It was hard to spot against the white background until all those dog hairs collected in it.

Since we live many hours from the closest dealer we had to fix all of these problems ourselves. I am what you might generously call mechanically challenged. The factory and the selling dealer both generously provided technical advice and support. However, when I questioned the factory rep about the assembly instructions, bill of materials, etc. all I got was evasive prater. Apparently there are no training programs or instructions for the assembly people, and certainly no one at the factory checked for these defects before they were covered up, and the boat was shipped off to the dealer.

As we were fixing these admittedly minor but very irritating problems we began to wonder why these problems ever happened at all. We couldn't help but wonder if there is any quality control at all at the factory.

The cost of all of the materials needed to fix these things was well under $10. The extra labor at the factory, while these things were still exposed, would probably have been under five minutes. Disassembling the various items and reassembling them so that they would work properly took me several days.

The boat hull and cabin seem well made and appear free of obvious serious defects. I am still hoping that they didn't screw up anything important in them that is still hidden.

If they let enough of these problems slip out of the factory, their valuable reputation for quality construction has to suffer at some point. I agree with the previous posts. The factory needs a quality control program and inspections system for the boats before they leave the factory.

Jim & Becky
 
(Owners should be able and willing to handle a drill, a screwdriver, a caulking gun, and a DMM.)

IGGY: I was doing well till I got to the DMM? What is a DMM?

"Damn Mad Momma" maybe. I do know how to handle that... You get up off the floor and say "Yes Maam, No Maan...Your are right Mom"... and then you hope you did that with enough feeling in your words that you did not run into the DMF when he got home....or... there would be more getting up to do.

Just wondering...and having some flashbacks....and noticing my teeth are not as straight as they were prior to my teenage years. :mrgreen: ...and that DMM of mine. Now, that is how Quality Control was handled around our Home....and I am blessed and alive today because of it.
 
When I posted the start of this thread I also emailed Jeff Messmer at C-Dory. He phoned me this morning. (Pretty awesome turn around.) Here is the substance of our conversation (some of this is confirmatory of the data in this post to date):

  • This change occured on 1 Sept of this year. C-Dory has taken out some ads in various magazines, the C-Dory home page, and posted here to try and notify folks.
    Scott Matthews is at SeRay Fife. This makes a big diff in my book. There is someone there who knows the boats.
    Correct - the company needs to focus on production and partner with dealers on the sales and service. This is understandable - in fact probably advantageous to future owners (and to us in terms of ensuring the factory is improving based on our feedback). Note there may be other outfits which could service the boats OK, but none C-Dory felt could do both sales and service.
    Jeff said SeaRay has shown a very high level of commitment and participation in training and starting up the partnership.
    Jeff emphasized the factory is still closely involved - as with all other dealers. SeaRay Fife knows they can count on the factory if something out of the ordinary comes up.
    This move is more fair to other dealers. I understand this.
I appreciate Jeff's call and candor. It reminds me of why I bought my boat. I am going to call Scott at SeaRay Fife and give 'em and chance.
 
Hey Falco-What about SeaRay Redmond? Aren't they a C-Dory dealer now? Are they "related" to the Fife Sea Ray dealership? Are all Sea Ray dealers now C-dory dealers too? Thanks, MartyP
 
Sea Ray of Redmond, Fife and Seattle are all units of Lake Union Sea Ray. According to Jeff the Fife (Milton actually) store is where the C-Dory expertise is currently focussed. Scott is there so that's where I am going.
 
Just wanted to chime in here, for those who do not know my background I had been the retail sales manager for the factory the past 3 years and am a fellow C-Dory owner of a 25 cruiser C-Puffin. I bring this up because I am know employed by Lake Union Sea Ray and work out the the fife location. Before making the decision to come over to Lake Union Sea Ray one of the areas I wanted to cover is that they had a service department that was committed to servicing new C-Dory customers and just as important to service the existing C-Dory customers that I and others had sold boats to over the years. I invite every one to stop by and say hello and should your C-Dory need servicing or some warranty work feel free to give myself or Aaron Alderman 253-922-4849 the service manager a call.
 
Byrd -

Yes, Roger was right. Digital Multimeter. Sorry - I don't usually like to fling jargon around; it really isn't very effective showing how 'smart' I am . . .

I've have previously used electronic test gear for several decades, including expensive meters, oscilloscopes, computerized data acquisition, etc. In recent years I have bought several DMMs (Digital Multi Meters) :wink: from Radio Shack for about $20-$30. About the size of a hand-held calculator, I find myself using them several times a week to check batteries, conductivity, etc. etc.

(For reliability and sturdiness, nothing beats meters by Fluke. They literally demo them by showing linemen dropping them from 30' up on a power pole. Still works! Dislaimer: my buddy worked for years at Fluke.)

Referring again to PassageMaker Magazine, there was an excellent article recently about the value of an onboard DMM (Digital . . . never mind), and of course, knowing how to use it. A number of significant items were troubleshooted (shot?) and fixed by radio or cell phone between dealer and cruiser; these would otherwise have remained out of service until reaching a repair shop. Some of these issues would have forced an early termination for safety reasons.

iggy
 
Does this mean that the factory is out of the repair business completely? I certainly hope not. This is the winter I was going to take my boat up there for some glass repair work. Even talked a little about it with Jeff at B'ham. I don't like the sound of this at all. Sure, there are lots of places that can do hull work, and sure the factory is a factory and not a job shop. But the C-Dory boat does not have so loyal a following 100% because of the product, and although the product is extraordinary, if they are relying on the boat alone to carry on the tradition that they - and yes, we here on this forum - have developed they might find they have more available time at the factory than they figured.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it sorta feels like my dad breaking my dinner plate when I moved out of the house as a teen.
 
A couple more things I should have added:

I do agree that sales are best left to dealers, for all the reasons already pointed out in this thread. No questions in my mind on that. But where better to have hull service, repair and custom work done than by the folks who built it? Of course it is less profitable than the building and wholesaling, but it also adds to the profit of same. Furuno is probably the most customer-friendly of the marine electronic makers because they do so much more than stand behind their product. They also support their customers. Anybody, anywhere can send their Furuno unit to the factory service center for repair. Their fault, product's fault - doesn't matter. The factory will fix it and usually for minimal charge or free. They don't make much money fixing stuff, but they sell a whole bunch more because they do.

I was somewhat surprised after Milehog's misfortune when he stated, "I contacted the factory & they didn't seem to want to get involved". Bothers me badly.

I am also skeptical of the depth of service that Sea Ray dealers will be willing - or allowed - to give to C-Dory customers. It seems to me that Brunswick keeps a pretty tight rein on their retailers. When I was considering buying a Trophy way back when and having it fitted with Hondas, I was told in no uncertain terms that Staff Jennings in Portland was not able to sell one with anything other than Mercury motors, nor could they sell one without motors. Staff Jennings is a large and well-established dealer, yet their sales policy in that regard was dictated to them. They suggested I tow the boat from their lot to a Honda dealer and trade in the Mercurys for Hondas. Just the statements on here so far about the Sea Ray dealer(s) having "committed to selling and servicing Honda motors as a package with C-Dory boats" make me wonder if it is a conditional commitment.

I would feel a whole lot better about this if there has simply been too much read into it. Maybe the only change will be that C-Dory stops retailing their product and all the other parts of their business that endears them so to their unique customers will stay the same. But nobody has said that yet.

And where should I take my boat for the hull work I want done and be comfortable that the shop knows and understands the unique customer that I am? There are not many places in the world I can find that.

OK - I'm done with my mini-rant. Thanks for listening.
 
I don't think Ford or Chevy dose service work at the factory either. I belive this is a practical business discission most likely to keep operating costs down. Not the best for the West coast. Stuff...changes not always in the best interest of the costumer :crook

This will have little impact for the rest of Nation. I hope it works out for you west coast fellows.

I would think a Sea Ray dealer would have plenty experience fixing ......less than par Boats :shock: ........................Maybe that was not nice. Sorry Sea Ray loyalists.


It is disappointing to here this.

Chris Bulovsky
 
I can agree with most all the points being made about the switch in policy regarding the factory repair situation, but here are three points I'd like to offer:

1. The ONLY Sea Ray dealerships that will be involved are those that are already also C-Dory dealerships. Some folks are generalizing as though ALL repairs will be through Sea Ray dealerships. Not true.

2. Sea Ray also produces a quality product. I cannot speak for all their products, but mine is built every bit as good as my C-Dory structurally, and has many quality features that are way beyond the design, fit, finish, and throughness of completion found in any C-Dory.

3. In my mind, the factory's change in position regarding responsibility for repairs pales in comparison to the issue of quality control. The number of problems faced by new boat owners is so huge it threatens to very seriously degrade the C-Dory reputation for producing a fine product.

Perhaps the change was made so that they could indeed focus on quality production instead of repairs, modifications, etc., but if they don't succeed in producing a largely fault-free product up front, it really is only of secondary concern who does the warranty fix-it work.

Joe.[/i]
 
I was going to point out Joe's item 1 too, it is really only Lake Union, Fife and Redmond, WA Sea Ray dealers we are talking about here, all more or less in the vicinity of the factory, not ALL Sea Ray dealers! If you are in the northern Puget Sound, EQ is still the dealer, in SW Washington and Oregon, still Sportcraft, etc. Sounds like Fife is sort of the designated C-Dory facility. If they can handle it, fine - and it is pretty close to the factory to run over and get things that might be factory specific.

Sea Wolf":26en76nf said:
1. The ONLY Sea Ray dealerships that will be involved are those that are already also C-Dory dealerships. Some folks are generalizing as though ALL repairs will be through Sea Ray dealerships. Not true.

Joe.[/i]
Click to expand...
 
I think the comparison of C-Dory to Ford or Chevy is not valid. The car builders have a dealer in every small town and sell hundreds of thousands of units. C-Dory is a niche boat builder. The buyer of a C-Dory is generally going to be a more informed, experienced boater. When Dr. Bob related it to Allegro Bay motorhomes, it reminded me of our experience with American Coach, Fleetwood's division of high end coaches. Fleetwood is the largest RV manufacturer in the US... from pop up campers to high end luxury motorcoaches. When we moved up from a Bounder diesel to an American Coach, the level of customer service and attention increased exponentially. American Coach encouraged owners to bring their motorcoach to the factory for repair/upgrades. They told owners, "We will take care of you for as long as you own this coach." And they did. They also sent a team to American Coach national gatherings to do on-site repairs and show their very newest coaches. And they kept owners in American Coaches. We bought a second American Coach because of this level of service.

When we were looking for our next boat, much of the good talk about C-Dorys revolved around the level of factory service. Because we didn't have a dealer within 1200 miles of us, we chose to buy directly from the factory. When I asked Jeff about service after we plunk down our money, he said, "We will take care of you." A good thing to hear when you just flew across the country to see/buy one of these boats; and knowing that you will drive 2800 miles to pick up the boat.

I didn't monopolize the factory's time after buying my boat - I talked to Scott 3 times and Jeff 2 times in the seven months between buying and picking up my boat (most of those conversations were to add extra cost options to our boat). There were a few issues that were addressed while we were in the NW after taking delivery of our boat. The factory stood behind the boat and got us taken care of.

If service is interferring with the production of boats, a small team dedicated to service (and quality control) would go a long ways towards customer satisfaction (and perhaps increased sales). I don't require a lot of "hand-holding", but I certainly appreciate the time/dedication necessary to build a relationship. And as a very recent buyer, I was surprised I had to find out about the factory's new policy on this forum.

So there is no doubt, we love this boat. I would buy this boat again. While writing this post, there have been numerous car commercials on TV (some local, some national)... LOTS of money spent to bring in new customers. This forum and the dedicated fans of these boats have provided a great deal of marketing for C-Dory. Our boat certainly stands out where we live, and we get inquiries on it every day.

C-Dory will never be General Motors or Ford. That is one of the attractions of these boats.

Sincerely,
Jim Bathurst
 
Seems like C-Dory wants to build more boats and make a quicker profit. What they
need to remember is that the profit will be short term, very short term, if they
fail to take care of existing customers and do a good job honoring warrantees (see
the blister thread). C-Dorys are expensive, and that price is only justified by
quality design, workmanship and solid factory support. Take that away, and the
$46K CD-22 is worth a whole lot less. Actually, there should be little warrantee
work since a quality boat should not have many issues to start with.

A quality boat should not blister. Mistakes can happen, but they should
be a very high priority fix. Even if the blisters are only gelcoat, resale
on a blistered cored hull isn't going to be great. Would anyone reading this
thread pay full price for such a boat?

Read some good reviews of Boston Whaler. At various times they, and perhaps
still are, producing a vastly over-rated product.

C-Dory: best place to start is with your workforce. Keep them happy, and they
will work hard and produce a good boat. Create a bad work environment, and
workers will start producing boats with the flaws we've recently heard about.
A good workforce, working a sane schedule in a good environment will have the
time to notice that the components used to make gelcoat are too old or were not
stored properly, and a management team that knows and understands that such materials should not be used contributes to quality. Profit will come, but it will take
time to expand. Also watch your dealships. Some seem a bit iffy.

Anyhow, it's not like we don't have a choice if C-Dory messes up.

Mike
 
Mike,

I read your post with interest. When we were at the factory in July and August, we saw no evidence of unhappy workers. In fact, one gentleman came up to us and asked, "How do you like your boat?" When we said that we loved it, he said, "Glad to hear that; I built this boat." How much satisfaction was that worth to BOTH of us?

From my point of view, a better way for C-Dory to have made this switch would have been to personally notify every owner that they sold a boat to directly (that is still under warranty, a number certainly only in the hundreds and easy to do with any mail/merge program) to let them know this change was coming. Perhaps tell them who their nearest dealer is, and also provide that owner's information to the dealer. In that form letter, they could throw in "our committment to continue to produce a quality product" and any other info that might make the transition easier.

Sincerely,
Jim Bathurst
 
I just got off the phone with Jeff Messmer from the factory. I think all of the e-mail problems have been resolved. If anyone was getting the factory e-mail address (me included) from the factory website without clicking on it (which would redirect it to Jeff's address), it was NOT going to Jeff. This isn't likely an issue for those who use a PC and Outlook... it is a real problem for those of us who use Macs and other e-mail software. Jeff was certainly not ignoring the e-mails... he wasn't getting them. He changed the address on the factory website while we talked. This should not be an issue in the future.

Jeff was very concerned that the tone of my posts had changed. I was concerned that the factory support that I was promised was being pulled out from under me. Not getting a response to several e-mails turned things up a notch. It turns out that technology got in the way of the factory and a customer coming to terms on this subject... and two decent guys miscommunicating. Jeff asked why I didn't just pick up the phone? I thought by sending an e-mail(s), he could respond at his convenience. I didn't want to be a bother. A total misunderstanding. And now resolved.

I know the factory folks care, and I especially know Jeff's passion for these boats and their owners. He assured me that Lake Union SeaRay has the same committment to taking care of C-Dory owners... and if for any reason that doesn't happen, we all have his phone number.

Thanks, Jeff, for taking the time. It's good to know that those of us who bought boats direct from the factory are not "orphans."

As I've stated repeatedly since we took delivery of Wild Blue, we love this boat. And we have appreciated our relationship with the factory folks who made this great boat possible. Due to this forum, people don't just buy a boat - they gain an extended family (we have met SO MANY great people since this boat became a part of the family). Not sure how it is in your house, but occasionally some of us have family squabbles... almost always, it's a lack of communication. I will be sure to hold up my end of the conversation.

Best wishes,
Jim Bathurst
 
Helllo C-Brats,

I am happy to report that I am not going crazy. It looks like I had an improper e-mail address posted on our website. If you have outlook and clicked on the FaC-Doryguy e-mail then it went to jeffmessmer@c-dory.com Thank you Jim for helping me walk through that one! One problem with that is not everyone has outlook. I would even venture to say that we have as many owners with Mac. These e-mails were going not getting to me. I have corrected the website. I want to reiterate with all of you that I am totally available. whether you e-mail me Jeffmessmer@c-dory.com , call my cell 206 940 0571 or the office 253 839 0222. Please give me the benefit of the doubt if you have e-mailed me and you do not get a response. Pick up the phone and give me a call. We receive so much junk and spam that some e-mails can get lost or redirected.

I would like to take a moment to address the move from being in the retail business. In order for us to concentrate on our core business, building boats, we needed to make a change. Having a retail busines without employees (service managers, parts department etc) that were dedicated to supporting it was becoming extremely difficult. Our dealer base has also grown to the point that we have a dealer in many of the markets that we previously had serviced. Their was understandibly some underlying tension between some of our dealers and ourselves. This tension would remain as long as we were in the retail business.
This was not an easy decision. We spent many months discussing what was best for our customers, our dealers and our company. We interviewed some of the finest dealers in the Seattle market before making a final decision. Lake Union SeaRay has some of the highest CSI ratings of any dealership in the country. They are a sales oriented company that puts service as a top priority. That is not easy to find. I have never had a dealer go through the kind of training that Lake Union SeaRay went through. They even sent their riggers, and their parts and service managers from each store to our factory for training. The owner and General Managers also attended the training. They have the C-Dory vision and are beginning to understand what is important to our customers.

Here at C-Dory our goal is to take care of every customer in a timely fashion. No one likes to have problems with their boat. We cannot service customers from afar, and by directing our customers to their local dealer we can help get them back on the water as soon as possible. We have spent a great deal of time and energy to put together one of the finest dealer networks in the industry. In this case the local dealer is Lake Union SeaRay. They have the support staff to get the boat in, get it repaired or serviced correctly and get it back to our customers in a timely fashion. There are very few repairs that are outside the scope of their ability. We are certainly willing to help or step in if we are needed. If you are in need of a repair that your dealer was unable to perform then you are certainly welcome to arrange to bring your boat in here to our factory. We are here to continue to support all of our customers in any way that we need to. That will never change on my watch. I look forward to seeing all of you on the boat show circuit this winter, at our annual factory gathering during the Seattle Boat Show or at one of the c-brats gatherings this spring.

Thank you,

Jeff
 
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