Rebuilding Seastar HH5271-3 Helm Pump

colbysmith

colbysmith

Active member
C-Traveler had a bit of an issue with it's steering in that turning to starboard, if turning the wheel rather slowly, nothing would happen. Turn it a little faster and it would catch and move the outboard. Turning to port worked fine. I thought it might just be air in the system, however after installing the autopilot and insuring I bled the system properly, I still had the same problem. Also the autopilot seems to wonder about 30 degrees to maintain heading. Yet the cockpit helm appeared to work fine. I pulled the cabin helm and checked the over pressure check valves. One of them appeared to have the spring in backwards, so I reinstalled it and went back out to the lake. Same issue. Just decided to buy a new helm pump and installed that the other day. Boat is at the Bimini shop now but I'm hoping when I get it back in a few days, and take it back out to the lake, all works well. In the mean time I tore the old helm pump apart and have the HS 5176 Seal Kit on order. Should be here in the next day or two. I probably should have taken more photos, but am starting to forget which way some of the internal springs and tiny metal balls came out. Also two of the valves were not screwed all the way into the bottom of their seats, and I just read on Hull truth they are not suppose to be.... I'll probably be trying to get a hold of SeaStar to see if they'll give me some technical assistance on that, and also to see if they can get me an exploded view of the helm pumps internal components. But I'm wondering if anyone here has rebuilt these before and have any information they can share. Would be nice to get this old pump back together properly and have it for a spare. BTW, I've done some exhaustive searching on the internet and youtube without much luck. There are a few videos on rebuilds, but they don't go into enough detail. Same with any diagrams I've found. If I think about it, I should document this project as I continue with many photos of my own! Colby
 
I used to rebuild hydraulic pumps and motors all the time things that were running 24 seven usually just a seal kit would be more than enough to get it working again seems like the pump for the steering would last a long long time when you consider how much work is actually doing. They should have an exploded view of the pump They might not want to let it out of there sight sort of like the fittings on the ends of their hoses the hydraulic shop told me that they couldn’t get them. You might want to check with them and see if they have a rebuilt pump and a core charge for the old one.
 
Actually I may be ok. Looking at stuff and thinking about it, there seems to be a logical way for which way the springs and balls go back in. I have been taking pictures and will post all when done. I had found some rebuild links earlier for around $250, however decided to go the new route. Then rather than tossing the old or spending more to have it rebuilt commercially figured I’d just buy an inexpensive seal kit and see if I could repair it to keep as a spare. Some other issues with why I also didn’t choose to send the old unit in for a rebuild. While the -3 requires ORB fittings someone had forced the older 1/4 NPT fittings in it. -5 ORB have a 1/2-20 thread but I was able to retap to clean the threads back up. The boat only has 274 hrs on it so didnt get much use. I see more problems from lack of use!
 
Kind of a shame to see nice boats that don't get used. I'll probably double those hours by next summer. Even the tilt and trim creaked when I first picked it up. Those crickets are already worked out! The good news is, the motor seems to be working fine. And I've heard the Yamaha 150 is a great motor! The steering pump is the most expensive flaw I've found. But with high use I expect the new one to last a long time. Colby
 
I did finally get an email back from SeaStar, but of little help:

Please do not work on the helm pump. Only an authorized service center can repair the helm. No parts diagram is available. I have attached the authorized service centers. It is a liability issue.
I have attached the install instructions for the front mount helms.
Let me know if you need anything else.
Bruce
Bruce Looney
Technical Service Representative
Phone +1 604-248-3858
Bruce.Looney@dometic.com
Dometic, 3831 No 6 Road, Richmond, BC, V6V 1P6, Canada

So I can understand their liability concerns, but still, the seal kits are easily attainable and with some mechanical ability, it shouldn't be that hard to rebuild some of this stuff. (I'm finding, it's not. It's just a matter of the learning curve you have to go thru without any kind of schematics or technical data.)

Better yet, I finally came across a very helpful thread on The Hull Truth. From that I found all my thoughts about how my helm pump went back together were correct. And there is even mention of a DIY test bench to set the over pressure valves properly. Here is a link:

https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/321796-seastar-steering-helm-pump-rebuild-pics.html

Also, while I'm thinking about it, during my autopilot install rather than buying new hydraulic lines, I was able to use a left over new line I already had. I needed two lines half the size and rather than buying two more lines, I was able to find some field fittings that worked great, and cut the line I had in half. Talking about the 5/16" seastar line with the 9/16" compression fittings. The field fitting part number is 2TFMS-6-5B.
 
Well, crap. After installing the new helm pump, I'm still having the same problem. That is, turn to port, all is well. Turn slowly to starboard and nothing happens. Turn the wheel faster and it will catch. Also, when on Autopilot, it can't hold heading. Will it can, but drifting 30 degrees to maintain that heading. Part of me says as soon as I can get the over pressure ports adjusted on the old helm that I rebuilt, change it out with the cockpit helm. Maybe that's the problem. But I'm starting to believe it's more likely in the ram at the engine. I bled the system today what I think was fairly well. However, it almost still feels like air in the system. I can move the outboard back and forth at least an inch, if not two. However, I can't get anymore air out of the system. There are no leaks anywhere. I changed the cap seals out on the ram on Midnight Flyer and have the old caps that I resealed, but don't see any reason to change those seals out on C-Traveler since there are no apparent leaks at the shafts. But what is inside? Off to Michigans Inside Water way for the next few weeks. I'll have several weeks when we get back before our next adventure to try resolving this problem again. Any ideas? Colby
 
I would be looking at the cockpit helm. Leaking valves there would cause your problem. Perhaps you can lock it out for the next trip and see if that works. If it is a simple "T", just put a union or straight fitting in place of the "T".
Or you can disconnect and cap off the tubes to the outside helm.
You should not be able to move the motor that much.
 
Enjoying the Cheboygan area now. Thanks Bob for that advice. Before I change out that cockpit helm, I'll disconnect the T's from the helm and block them off, and see if I still have the problem. Save me from changing out that helm if the problem still exists. In which case the only thing left would be the ram...Colby
 
I bought some 3/8" compression caps to cap off the tees at the cockpit helm, before leaving Cheboygan, and installed them that afternoon when we arrived at our anchorage in Mullett Lake. I think that helm may have been the problem. But I also suspect some issue with the Cylinder at the outboard. While I don't have the issue I did with no turning when spinning the wheel slow to starboard, there still appears to be air or something else going on in the system. I can still move the engine an inch or two in either direction. I would think if it was fluid leaking internally, the engine would not "spring back" to position, but rather stay where it's moved too. My plans are to go ahead and buy a new seal kit for the cylinder, and after adjusting the over pressure valves in the cabin helm I rebuilt after installing a new helm, reinstall that helm in the cockpit. Finally I'll bleed the system again and try to get all the air out and see what happens. I emailed Sea Star with the issue, and this was their reply:

"Thanks for the email , when adding a second station to a single engine or single ram vessel we only recommend using PRO helms , if they are not used the exact problem of a station freewheel will occur and be more evident when the helms are on a similar plane . To rule the ram out as being bad we can only recommend removing the hoses and capping or dead heading the ram off , if the engine can still be moved the ram has internal damage ."

I'm thinking they are more interested in selling me more of their product than really addressing the problem with me. Some quick research indicates the pro series just produce more pressure and require the higher pressure hoses and cylinders! I'll continue to try and solve this with the work I mentioned above. If that doesn't fix it, I guess I'm taking it into a shop...
 
colbysmith":1hrwxi9e said:
I bought some 3/8" compression caps to cap off the tees at the cockpit helm, before leaving Cheboygan, and installed them that afternoon when we arrived at our anchorage in Mullett Lake. I think that helm may have been the problem. But I also suspect some issue with the Cylinder at the outboard. While I don't have the issue I did with no turning when spinning the wheel slow to starboard, there still appears to be air or something else going on in the system. I can still move the engine an inch or two in either direction. I would think if it was fluid leaking internally, the engine would not "spring back" to position, but rather stay where it's moved too. My plans are to go ahead and buy a new seal kit for the cylinder, and after adjusting the over pressure valves in the cabin helm I rebuilt after installing a new helm, reinstall that helm in the cockpit. Finally I'll bleed the system again and try to get all the air out and see what happens. I emailed Sea Star with the issue, and this was their reply:

"Thanks for the email , when adding a second station to a single engine or single ram vessel we only recommend using PRO helms , if they are not used the exact problem of a station freewheel will occur and be more evident when the helms are on a similar plane . To rule the ram out as being bad we can only recommend removing the hoses and capping or dead heading the ram off , if the engine can still be moved the ram has internal damage ."

I'm thinking they are more interested in selling me more of their product than really addressing the problem with me. Some quick research indicates the pro series just produce more pressure and require the higher pressure hoses and cylinders! I'll continue to try and solve this with the work I mentioned above. If that doesn't fix it, I guess I'm taking it into a shop...
Click to expand...

Air will compress, fluid won't :thup
 
Well Sheeeeet! Many hours of work, not to mention money spent, and back to where I was. After getting home from our last trip, I pulled the cockpit helm that appeared to be causing the problem I listed at the top of this thread. I finished working on the original cabin helm that I pulled, setting the over-pressure valves, and then reinstalled the ORB fittings. Unfortunately, someone in the past put MIP fittings where ORBS should have been. I had tapped it out, but likely over tightened the proper ORB fitting, only to strip it out again. So back to just forcing the MIP fitting in there. And while doing the pressure test, it leaked like a sieve! Ok. I'll rebuild the original cockpit helm then. Which I did. It was definitely an older unit. (When the last owner had the cockpit helm installed, he provided his own helm pump, but I don't know where he got it...) New enough to be a -3, but definitely more wear than the original cabin helm. Got it all put back together, reinstalled it in the boat, and took the boat out today for a test run. Actually seems to be working worse now. Just a recap, turning to port all is well. Then turn to starboard, and nothing, until you move or spin the wheel faster. I'm assuming there is something more going on with that old helm than what resealing it could fix. (All the parts appeared to be installed correctly, and seemed to work before I put it back together.)

So, question for any and all that have two helms. How do they work for you? Are there any additional shutoff valves to lock one system out? Does your steering work normal from either helm?

At this point I really don't want to spend any more money on another new helm! I'm going to see if I can either fix the threads on the original cabin helm with helicoils, or force an MIP fitting in and coat it with the red locktite and see if that will stop it from leaking. Wish I would have recognized it was the cockpit helm in the first place causing all the trouble. And wish the cabin helm would have had the proper fittings installed!

Once I get this all figured out, I'm thinking seriously of redoing the entire hydraulic hose system. As it stands now, and as SeaStar recommends, the cockpit helm has hoses running to the cabin helm where it is tee'd in at the back of the cabin helm. This requires about 16 feet of hose x 3. (Two for pressure, one for the return or supply line.) When I installed my autopilot pump, I teed that in back at the cockpit helm, which required 11 feet of hose x 3. While SeaStar warns not to cut their hoses, I have found some field fittings that work well. I used those when I cut a new 22 ft hose I had left over to make two 11 ft hoses. Seems to me it would be a lot cleaner, with fewer hoses being snaked thru the boat, if I were to cut the hydraulic hoses between the cabin helm and outboard cylinder, to tee in closest to the second helm and the autopilot.

Colby
 
Colby
Your project sounds like the wrong $30 washer on my propeller that cost me about a boat unit to remedy. I’ve sent you some links for possible solution. Hope they help. Sounds like a sticky....leaky hydraulic valve. I know you’ll post your solution.

Tom
 
Coby I can only relate to larger boats where I had an auto pilot and two helms. In that case the lines were "T" where it. was closest to the main line running from the furthest away helm. Those two were "Hynautic". which is now owned by Sea Star Dometic). The one difference between the Hynautic and Sea Star is the Hynautic has a reservoir and is always under a few PSI of pressure. Since the Auto pilot pump set was close to the steering ram, that is where it was "T". As long as there is adequate fluid in both pumps. then it should work well.

I agree with Tom, it is not the length of hose, it is a "leak" somewhere. Probably in a helm steering pump.
 
Well screw it!!!! :evil: Tried fixing the threads on the helm pump I was going to use in the cockpit with a helicoil kit, and it looked ready to go today. Until I screwed in the ORB fitting! 1100 psi and a little leak, so I torqued down just a little more on the fitting, only to have the casing crack.... Why can't shop technicians or others use the fittings called for in the first place! (And why did I even mess with the cabin helm in the first place, when it ended up being the cockpit helm that was the problem...) Tired of screwing with it. Can't fix this pump anymore, and I don't think I want to use parts off the helm pump that was causing the problems in the first place. (Most likely the problem was in the valves/ports that are in the head unit of the old pump that I would need...) So, just ordered another new helm off of Amazon. (So I'll have two brand new helm pumps, one in the cabin, the other in the cockpit!) Should be here Friday, and I'll have a few days to get it all back together before our trip out to Lake Powell. Plan to pretty much redo most of the system. Pulling the tees off the back of the cabin pump and just hook the hoses up there for the outboard cylinder. Then I'm pulling all the extra and unnecessary hydraulic hoses. I'm going to tee the autopilot smart pump, and the cockpit helm into the two main hydraulic hoses close to the other pumps. This will cut the total hose length in half or better, and clean up the hose spaghetti at both helm pumps! I've already ordered the field fittings where I cut into the main hydraulic hoses, rather than replacing those hoses with shorter premade hoses. The fittings are Parker part # 2TFMS-6-5B, and already proven reliable as I used them during the autopilot install. They are screwed into the hose, with another fitting that screws over the outside. Very tight fit, and probably more secure than the pressed on fittings. If anyone else is interested in these fittings, I found the best price from Livingston & Haven. ($15.xx vs $25-32 elsewhere.) I've got more than enough hydraulic hose, and with premade hose costing upwards of $100, it's worth the time to use the field fittings. In the mean time, here's some photos of the little pressure test holder I made.

Backside
IMG_9779.jpg

Front
IMG_9780.jpg
 
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