Repowering 16' Angler, battery charging choices

D

do dawdle

New member
I just bought an '85 16' Angler that I am taking to Sportcraft in Portland to have new 40 HP and 5 HP Hondas put on the boat. The 5 HP will be used as a trolling motor (anything bigger will go too fast for my style of fishing.)

On past boats I've had problems with the battery running down when I ran the kicker to troll all day for 8-10 hours or so using the sonar continuously.

My son suggested getting a dual battery system but I think weight and space considerations make two batteries not the best choice.

Of course the 40 HP motor has the standard Honda electrical system per their specs: 22 amp alternator, 17 amp charging power.

There is an optional dealer-installed 3 amp charging system that Honda advertises for the 5HP. I am thinking of getting this added to the 5 HP motor and connecting it to the battery along with the main motor's electrical leads. If I'm thinking correctly, the 3-amp system should keep the battery charged (or at least keep it from running down as fast) while I'm trolling for extended periods and using the sonar all the time, and perhaps a radio as well.

In the past I've ran my big motor several times every few hours to keep the battery charged, but I don't want to run my big motor if I can use the small one for that purpose while I'm fishing.

Would there be any problems associated with having both of these charging systems connected to the battery?

Am I on the right track?
 
No problems with the two systems on the battery. However, I would get a larger battery--pref: group 31. I would also buy a second battery forward, and put in a VSR (Voltage Sensative Relay). Also you can slow a boat down with an 8 hp and low pitch prop. The 8 hp with Electric start weight is about 30 lbs more, and the charging output is 12 amps.

The 3 amps, with a second battery will probably be adequate however. Run your electronics off the second battery. Lots of good reasons to do this.
 
I follow you about running your electronics off the second battery.

For me the 4 HP is a good trolling motor as it comes and it would do the job (where I fish) as a backup if the big motor should fail.

I like the idea of electric start on the 8HP but I have to consider if its worth an extra 30 lbs. I also really like the available power tilt on the 8.
Those two niceties might be worth the extra weight over the 4 and I'm sure they would be appreciated by my body as I get older.

One thing that is a must for me is a pull start capability on at least one of the two motors, and I see a very good reason for that. I guess I view a pull start to be at the same priority as you view a sophisticated two battery system with electronics running on only one of them. I'm not sure you can keep the pull start on the 8HP if you also get the electric start. If the 8HP electric start does not also allow pull start capability, I would have to stay with the 4.

I won't have the electronics that the bigger saltwater boats use. I'll have a GPS/fish finder/chart map unit, running lights for brief periods early and late, and maybe an AM/FM radio. No radar, no ship to shore radio and none of the other amazing things about which I am totally ignorant.

I must have a pull start capability and a 4HP will do fine as a backup to the 40. I only want to keep my main battery from running down during the long periods when I run my GPS/sonar.

It's worth mentioning that my son runs a 24' Defiance out of San Diego. He goes out quite a ways after dorado, tuna etc. For my new boat he recommended a dual battery system with the three (four?) position master switch. I'm sure the weight of an extra battery never entered his mind when he put that system on his boat but I feel that weight and especially space are somewhat at a premium on a 16' Angler. Maybe the perception of desirable and even necessary equipment depends on the type of water you frequent and how far you get from land.
 
No problem with the weight of the extra battery (look at photos of C pup in S. Calif!). With the weight forward, the boat will handle it fine.

All of the 8, 9, 15, 25 and up to 40 motors (plus) are easily pull started. There were years where I pulled started 35 to 40 hp outboards with no electric start. I have owned a number of 8 to 25 hp dinghy motors which were electric and pull start--no loss of pull start! Yes the tilt and trim would be nice also. I believe you were looking at a 5 hp Honda, not a 4 hp.
 
One thing to check out on the Honda: I don't know about that motor specifically, but some small motors that have alternators don't actually give you much charging output unless you are up near the top of the RPM range. If that were the case, and you plan to troll a lot, you might not get the amps you expected.

Sunbeam
 
If all you are running while trolling is a GPS/Sonar/Plotter, AM/FM radio and lights occasionally, the 3 amps going into your single battery from your kicker may be enough to keep it topped up. I'm no expert, but I troll with a Yamaha T8, which admittedly generates more amps (6 at full throttle, but less at lower speeds), and run a fishfinder, a separate GPS/chartplotter, a VHF radio and an AIS receiver. Never had the battery fail to start my main motor, even after a full day of trolling. There are calculators on the internet that will calculate your total electrical draw, but unless you have a powerful sound system for a radio, your current draw is likely very low. For instance, my fishfinder draws 170 mA (milliamps) lights off and 240 mA lights on. My GPS/Plotter uses 1 amp or less, I think. My VHF uses 0.4 amp on standby; 1.5 when receiving and more (1.5-5.5 amps) when transmitting, which is not often. The AIS receiver draws 90 mA. Rather than wiring in a second battery, I just carry a "power pack" (20 lbs or less) to boost my battery if it runs down so much I can't start my main motor. Haven't had to use it yet.

If you are a day fisherman like me, you might not need a second battery. If I were making multi-day trips far from the marinas and other boats, I'd seriously consider a second battery.
 
I am currently using a 50hp Honda and 5hp Suzuki for my 16' Angler. I originally had an 8hp Honda as a kicker but I didn't like the additional weight at the transom and it wouldn't push the boat any faster than a 5 hp Suzuki. I also use two batteries and a battery switch. I installed a deep cycle battery in the cuddy (see storage rack photo album for 16Pounder) and don't have any problems with weight. I typically fish the San Juans and once a year on the west side of Vancouver Island out of Winter Harbour where it can get a little "sporty". My concern was getting too much weight at the transom with two guys (brother is 6-5, 280#) in the back, downriggers out, full fuel tanks, and taking a wave over the transom. Placing the second battery ahead of the steering wheel and the fish in the cuddy helps to keep everything well balanced. So in my exerience, the 16' C-Dory can take a lot of weight but it needs to be positioned properly.

Al
 
thataway":3hpiwzbn said:
No problem with the weight of the extra battery (look at photos of C pup in S. Calif!). With the weight forward, the boat will handle it fine.

All of the 8, 9, 15, 25 and up to 40 motors (plus) are easily pull started. There were years where I pulled started 35 to 40 hp outboards with no electric start. I have owned a number of 8 to 25 hp dinghy motors which were electric and pull start--no loss of pull start! Yes the tilt and trim would be nice also. I believe you were looking at a 5 hp Honda, not a 4 hp.
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Thanks for correcting me, I am looking at a 5hp Honda. I've pull started a few larger outboards myself, most often when my battery was depleted after a long day of fishing, and its something I want to avoid in this boat.

I my be mis-interpreting the Honda website, but it looks like you have a choice of pull start or electric start with the 8HP. They don't specifically indicate that the pull start mechanism is still under the cover like it was in other motors in years past. I can't recall how I got the impression that pull start/electric start has become an "either-or" option on newer motors but I do hope I'm mistaken about that with the Honda 8HP and also with the 40. It only makes sense to retain the pull start feature on the small and mid-sized outboards as a backup to the electric start.

I really appreciate the advice that you and others provide here on C-Brats. It's hard to put a value on shared experience.

I've always had a (freshwater ) fishing boat but I haven't had anything to do with a brand new outboard motor since Dad's new Larson in 1969. He bought it when he retired.
 
I too have asked questions about batteries on a 16 angler. I got good answers but much of it I still don't understand. So, for what it's worth, here's what we have. We have two batteries located in the stern, on the starboard side. A Perko switch (All off, battery 1, both, battery 2) is within easy reach, where the starboard side meets the rear shelf. We use one battery on the outward bound trip and the other battery heading back to the ramp, never both. Each battery has it's own waterproof charger which we use only when the boat is stored on the trailer for a long time. When the chargers are being used the Perko switch is turned to "All off". The bilge pump float is wired directly to a battery. If we had one of those computerized bilge pumps it would have an inline fuse which we would remove when the boat is stored on the trailer.
Again, I certainly don't know anything about the technical stuff, but this set up works well for us.
 
Sunbeam":2odytqew said:
One thing to check out on the Honda: I don't know about that motor specifically, but some small motors that have alternators don't actually give you much charging output unless you are up near the top of the RPM range. If that were the case, and you plan to troll a lot, you might not get the amps you expected.

Sunbeam
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Thanks for pointing out the charging characteristics of the smaller motors at different RPMs. I guess that's likely the case with most motors, automotive, lawn mower, etc.

Where I fish, most people troll upstream, sometimes with the wind but generally against the current. At the end of the troll they pull out and motor downstream in deeper water that doesn't hold many fish, then their trolling pass starts upstream again through the holding water. I'm thinking the small output alternator on the 5HP motor will do as you described at a slow troll, but there will be regular periods of higher RPMs during the downstream run with the current.
 
Saxe Point":3n4nxr9g said:
If all you are running while trolling is a GPS/Sonar/Plotter, AM/FM radio and lights occasionally, the 3 amps going into your single battery from your kicker may be enough to keep it topped up. I'm no expert, but I troll with a Yamaha T8, which admittedly generates more amps (6 at full throttle, but less at lower speeds), and run a fishfinder, a separate GPS/chartplotter, a VHF radio and an AIS receiver. Never had the battery fail to start my main motor, even after a full day of trolling. There are calculators on the internet that will calculate your total electrical draw, but unless you have a powerful sound system for a radio, your current draw is likely very low. For instance, my fishfinder draws 170 mA (milliamps) lights off and 240 mA lights on. My GPS/Plotter uses 1 amp or less, I think. My VHF uses 0.4 amp on standby; 1.5 when receiving and more (1.5-5.5 amps) when transmitting, which is not often. The AIS receiver draws 90 mA. Rather than wiring in a second battery, I just carry a "power pack" (20 lbs or less) to boost my battery if it runs down so much I can't start my main motor. Haven't had to use it yet.

If you are a day fisherman like me, you might not need a second battery. If I were making multi-day trips far from the marinas and other boats, I'd seriously consider a second battery.
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I am a day fisherman like you.

I re-visited the Honda website and this is what they say about the 3 amp, 38 watt alternator on their 5 HP motor:

"An optional, dealer installed, 3 amp charging system provides power to accessories."

I understand that the 5HP motor's alternator is not designed to keep a big starting battery charged, so I am wondering if their intent is to keep a charge in a smaller battery, like a lawnmower or ATV-sized battery. If Honda's 5HP is designed to be used on small craft, many or most of which are fishing boats that could still use a sonar and even running lights, what size battery is intended for that kind of primary use?

What I'm driving at is maybe I should just get a smaller battery for the modest electrical demands on my boat and power it with the optional 5HP alternator as a separate electrical system from the main motor's charging battery? Maybe I'd be more in line with Honda's design and intention for that little alternator?

This would give me two separate electrical systems and if the small battery does run down I'd be a day fisherman without a sonar, oh my goodness, will I live?

I understand the increased reliability of dual-battery systems; we used that type of system on our ambulance when I was an EMT. But there is something to be said for two separate electrical systems. Every power generating station in the country has separate systems for critical normal and backup "in-plant" power supplies.

One question would be how to power the bilge pump? Maybe with the bigger battery and a positive disconnect type of manual switch?

I really appreciate the wealth of ideas and advice from all of you generous members here on C-Brats. You can't put a high enough value on the voice(s) of experience.
 
Always power the bilge pump off the larger battery. If you go with an U 1 battery the pump could run it down and then you are in a pickle.

There is not that much weight difference between a U1 or a Group 31 battery--that would make any difference in the way your boat handles.

I have used a U1 or PWC battery as a primary battery on inflatable tenders with 9.9 to 25 hp--and they are adequate to start these engines and run simple electronics like sonar. However, I used an AGM small battery because of size, and where the battery had to be located. If given a choice, I always would go with the larger battery. If you run a battery down to less than 12.2 volts you will shorten its life span. (Although I moniter my batteries, it is not necessary in a 16 with simple uses. on the other hand a simple volt meter will tell a lot of informaton.
 
just a comment/clarification do dawd- if your total electrical draw is 2 amps, and your charging system output is 3 amps, your net battery charging ability is 1 amp. Your charging system doesn't care whether you're sticking that 1 amp in an 8D (huge) battery or a U1 (lawnmower) battery, or your current (probably Group 24) battery. I'm big on keeping boating simple, though do-dads a gee-gaws are fun to play with. And I believe redundancy is worth pursuing as long as you don't go nuts with it. Do you have a hand crank on your vehicle if the battery dies? A voltmeter- reading volts, not those percentage meters- is a wonderful thing if you know how to read it, which is pretty simple. Aloha, Steve.
 
You might think about a small solar panel on the roof.
It probably would not handle the entire load, but would slow the discharge down.
Depending on the size of the panel, it could handle all of the load.

Jerry
 
nuipukawai":176oqi46 said:
just a comment/clarification do dawd- if your total electrical draw is 2 amps, and your charging system output is 3 amps, your net battery charging ability is 1 amp. Your charging system doesn't care whether you're sticking that 1 amp in an 8D (huge) battery or a U1 (lawnmower) battery, or your current (probably Group 24) battery. I'm big on keeping boating simple, though do-dads a gee-gaws are fun to play with. And I believe redundancy is worth pursuing as long as you don't go nuts with it. Do you have a hand crank on your vehicle if the battery dies? A voltmeter- reading volts, not those percentage meters- is a wonderful thing if you know how to read it, which is pretty simple. Aloha, Steve.
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Never had a hand crank but before the modern gadgets like automatic transmissions came along I used to park my uncle's old jeep backed up the best available downgrade when he let me borrow it to go fishing. Its charging system was good for one start at his farm and it turned fickle after that. I guess getting it ready for a roll start was a pretty simple redundancy. No working instruments, of course.
 
jerry97230":1j6wlr86 said:
You might think about a small solar panel on the roof.
It probably would not handle the entire load, but would slow the discharge down.
Depending on the size of the panel, it could handle all of the load.

Jerry
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No offense but I think a wind generator would be more appealing on my '85 C-Dory. Around here they're taking on their own "classic" look, gleaming white and all....
 
Why a 40hp repower and not a 50? I have had both motors on 16 footers and have no great preference either way. I do think the 50 achieves and maintains a comfortable, for us, speed (about 12-15mph) somewhat easier and at a lower rpm than the 40. Also, if reselling, a knowlegeable buyer might be more accepting of the 50, at least that happened to me when my 16 footer with a 40 was parked next to a similar 16 with a 50. In my anecdotal experience the 40 is an appropriate and adequate engine for a 16, but, the 50 does have some, perhaps minor, advantages.
 
dotnmarty":ep6lik0g said:
Why a 40hp repower and not a 50? I have had both motors on 16 footers and have no great preference either way. I do think the 50 achieves and maintains a comfortable, for us, speed (about 12-15mph) somewhat easier and at a lower rpm than the 40. Also, if reselling, a knowlegeable buyer might be more accepting of the 50, at least that happened to me when my 16 footer with a 40 was parked next to a similar 16 with a 50. In my anecdotal experience the 40 is an appropriate and adequate engine for a 16, but, the 50 does have some, perhaps minor, advantages.
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The biggest factor in my choice of a 40 was the photo of a 16' Angler on the C-Dory website and the 40 was listed as the recommended engine on their spec sheet. (I understand 55 is maximum.)

Searching I found a fair number of opinions either way for various reasons. I'm thinking maybe the strongest reason to go 50 is more power when you really need more power.

Were both of your motors Honda four cycles? Were they basically the same engine only set up differently like the 2012 40 and 50 are now?
 
Until I bought a C-Dory I was an infrequent guest on this site. I am simply amazed at how helpful you C-Brats are with all the questions a new owner is faced with.

I think I would have benefited by spending more time on C-Brats before I bought my boat, not that I would have looked for anything other than a C-Dory...

PS: This is not a signal to drop the discussion; if anyone has more advice about things in this topic/thread, I'm all ears.
 
do dawdle":35ncaock said:
Were both of your motors Honda four cycles? Were they basically the same engine only set up differently like the 2012 40 and 50 are now?
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The 40 was a 2004 Honda carborated and the 50 is a 2011 Honda efi. Both were, of course, 4 cycle .
 
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