Sticking, creaking, barely-opening center front window...

[Sunbeam]

My 22 Cruiser has an opening front window. Well, supposedly anyway. I noticed when I looked at it before I bought it that the window was very stiff and had a couple of loud "creak points, " but figured okay, it just needed some lubrication and use. Not only was it difficult to open, and creaky, but it was hard to get closed again (again, a binding, creak point).

For a while I just ignored the fact that it was supposed to open, and left it closed. I had other fish to fry. Then, I lubricated it copiously (Boeshield T-9 and then light oil) and exercised it (carefully). No change. It opens partway, then sticks, and if you ease it past that point, it creaks horribly and scarily, in an "I'm going to break" way. So I went on to other projects and figured I'd let it "soak" for awhile. When I came back to it.... no change. Even after months of "soaking."

So, I called Diamond Sea Glaze. They knew the window I meant, and said that they hadn't ever heard of one getting sticky or "creaky" before so they were somewhat mystified. I don't know why mine would be unique, but... apparently it is. The window and frame look to be in very good condition - not a hotbed of corrosion or anything like that.

Next, I asked them what the hinge pins were made of and they said plastic (maybe Delrin, I forget at the moment), and that I could pound them out and maybe try sanding them down. I decided to order a new set of the pins from DSG to have on hand for the project (plus, I would rather put in perfectly cylindrical new ones than sand down old ones). They arrived, but then I was busy with other projects. Now, it's time to get that window into shape.

Having read about a few others who experienced broken hinges (casting/weld broke), I don't want to force anything. I tried to (gently) pound out the existing hinge pin with a slightly smaller dowel, but no luck. (I can also now see there are something like plastic washers between the hinge sections, not that that should keep the pins in.) I had thought about using a clamp to slowly drive them out, but then the other end of the clamp would be putting force on the other hinge "ear," and I am worried about breaking it. Too bad I can't use a drill press on the boat!

So... just wondering if anyone else has had a sticking/creaking issue and how they solved it. And/or if anyone has any ideas about how to get the old pins out and new pins in (I'm far from being a machinist and haven't worked with aluminum that much). I do have another message in to Diamond Sea Glaze to call me back, but since they haven't heard of anyone having problems, I figured I'd ask you all as well in the meantime.

Thanks,
Sunbeam

 

[Sea Wolf]

Sunbeam-

If you want to drill out the existing plastic hinge pins, start with a very small diameter drill bit in, say, a Dremel tool. (Probably not enough room for a full sized drill up there.)

Drill from both ends, trying to keep on center, until you meet in the middle, then switch bits and gradually use larger diameters until you ream out the pins.

However, I'm a bit baffled about why the hinge pins make so much noice.

Is it the sliding support rods and the lock open mechanism instead? (Seems more likely.)

(I don't have the opening window on my '87 CD-22, so may not be visualizing your problem correctly.)

Keep us updated, and good luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

Hi Joe,

I'll take a photo and post it (or maybe find one to borrow from the albums). I'm pretty sure it's the hinges because, for one thing, the support arm can be made totally loose (I mean, so it's obviously not involved), and two, I can hear/feel it in the hinges, I'm pretty sure. There really isn't any other point of contact. But, I'll double check it all.

Basically it looks like the window and the fixed hinge parts are aluminum, powder-coated white. The fixed hinge parts have holes in them and a plastic rod runs through for a hinge pin.

I thought of drilling, but I'm loathe to because I worry about damaging the powder coating.

Photos later - and thanks for your thoughts. This is why I wanted to post - many heads are better than one, and I know there are some really experienced "fixers" here :thup

Sunbeam

 

[thataway]

If I was using a Dremel tool, A great suggestion by Joe, I would use the flexiable shaft --that allows you to get in a much smaller place. You might also be able to cut these "washers" out--it that would help--with one of the plastic cut off wheels. As you know (some others may not) there are several different chucks for the Mandrels or drill bits (and there is a 7 piece drill bit set for the Dremel tool).

I would probably not use BioShield 9 as a lubricant--probably best would be a teflon liquid lubricant. But it is always hard to know what was used on these hinge pins in the past--perhaps something which made them swell.

I would also use a roll punch slightly smaller than the hinge pin to try and tap out the plastic hinge pin.

 

[Sunbeam]

I would probably not use BioShield 9 as a lubricant--probably best would be a teflon liquid lubricant. But it is always hard to know what was used on these hinge pins in the past--perhaps something which made them swell.

My guess would be that nothing was used in the past - just based on the overall feel of the boat (not neglected, but just "as new" in terms of things being modified). Mostly I used some light oil in the form of sewing machine oil. I used that because it has a great, flexible "zoom spout" that allows one to reach in anywhere and "push" the oil in. After that (getting a bit more desperate), I used some T-9. Actually, at that point (months ago), I didn't know the pins were plastic. I do hear you about not using something that could make it swell. That said, it is no worse now than it was before (but also no better). At least now I have new pins, if I can just get the old ones out without damaging the hinge.

I would also use a roll punch slightly smaller than the hinge pin to try and tap out the plastic hinge pin.

I will have to look up to see what a roll punch is - thanks for the suggestion. So far I used a hardwood dowel that was just a bit smaller in diameter than the pin, and reasonably gentle tapping, and no go. So I still have a few more steps on the force scale. I wonder: if I drilled out the center of the pin with a small drill bit (that would not put me in danger of scraping the powder coated metal, would that weaken the pin and make it easier to drive out? I suppose maybe not and like an I-beam the center is not as important, structurally (darnit).

I also thought about drilling a hole in a block of starboard to "guide" the dowel, and then squeezing on it with a clamp; but I'm not sure about putting the "back side" of the clamping force onto the hinge protrusion, so I have not tried it yet.

I still want to know how I got the "one" window that has ever stuck! If you've ever had a creaking, stiff laptop hinge, then just multiply it to get the feeling (you know, the one you need to close after everyone else is asleep...).

Joe: I forgot to take photos before it got too dark, but I'll take some tomorrow.

Sunbeam

 

[Chester]

Mine were creaking and binding too. Yes my joints are starting to creak too but let's try to stay on topic...
Silicone spray helped but there is still a tiny bit of stiction.

 

[Sea Wolf]

SUNBEAM-

If the hinges are still creaking after being lubricated, I'd float a guess it is because the hinges are out of alignment.

If all the hinges and their holes line up in a single line, all the radii swung by the window parts are the same, and there's no binding.

If, however, the radii are different, different parts of the window want to follow different paths, and the window binds when swung open and closed.

The more hinge pins there are, the more have to line up, and the greater chance of one element being out of line.

This works with doors, cabinets, etc. Adding a third or fourth hinge element to door, cabinet, safe, or whatever, makes it all the more important everything is in alignment.

Can you see any damage, bending, or misalignment? (Would be difficult to see since you can't look "down the barrel" (so to speak) of the hinges up under the hood.) Try using a mirror to see from an angle? Use a small laser to shoot down the hinge path?

Might have to check this with a straight tube of the same diameter of the pins once the pins are out.

BTW: Are the hinges several individual units or more like a piano hinge? (Remember I don't have such a window!) If they're more like a piano hinge, using smaller diameter pins would create more clearance/tolerance.

Just a suggestion………???

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

Joe,

I hear what you are saying. There are just two hinges, and everything looks to be in alignment. The window closes and seals perfectly (which I don't think it would do if anything was really out of whack). The hinges are pretty visible, as they protrude from the window frame. The symptoms do seem to align with the idea of the pins swelling slightly (although DSG says they have not heard of that ever happening, so...?) I am not really familiar with these types of materials, but looking at the new pins I almost wonder if there might be a better material - perhaps some sort of oil impregnated something-or-other. I think I remember that Delrin bushings can swell (say, if used on rudder hardware, but of course that is submerged).

I'll take a photo tomorrow, but basically each hinge consists of two "outer" lugs on the window frame and one inner lug (between the other two) on the moving part of the window. These are chunky, cast (?) lugs that end up being part of the window/frame. A plastic (maybe Delrin or similar) pin runs through all three. There look to be plastic washers also in the two spaces between the three parts. I can't see any bubbling or corrosion on the powder coated lugs.

Chester: Thanks for noting your experience. I'm usually loathe to let silicone anywhere near the boat, but maybe I will have to relent one time :lol:

I'm still hoping to confer with Diamond Sea Glaze tomorrow; if so I'll report back what I find out.

Sunbeam

 

[thataway]

If you are loathe to get silicone near the boat, what do you spray the tracks in the windows with? Unless your are planing to paint the boat in the near future, I don't seen any problem with using small amounts of dry silicone spray.

 

[Sunbeam]

I haven't sprayed the sliding windows yet, but when I do, I suppose I will first look for a product that doesn't contain silicone. Hopefully there is one. (I realize that "liquid rollers" is popular.)

My choice to try not to use it is just a personal preference, having dealt with the residue in the past and found it unpleasant.

 

[Sunbeam]

An update:

Josh from Diamond Sea Glaze called me back this morning. We discussed the problem and here is what he suggested:

1) He mentioned that at some point in time they made the hinge pins larger (by maybe 1/16"), so I should double check that I received the size that matches my window (not that this had been a factor yet). He said they'd get me the other size pins if it turns out I need them :thup

2) He suggested that when I go to remove the pins, that I don't do it with the window closed, but instead move it into a position where it is the "best" - i.e. the most freely moving. This makes sense, but I hadn't thought of it.

3) He suggested I continue with the dowel/tapping or possibly a punch, and then if that doesn't work, go ahead with drilling out the center of the pin and then tapping out the remainder.

4) For lubricating the pins/hinges he suggested Teflon™ as the first choice, and silicone as the second. He said Teflon doesn't wash out as quickly. I have some Slide-All spray, which I think is Teflon™, but I'll check and get some new product if it isn't.

I liked that Josh didn't say he'd never heard of anyone else having this problem. Now let's hope I can solve it.

Sunbeam

 

[Sunbeam]

(I don't have the opening window on my '87 CD-22, so may not be visualizing your problem correctly.)

Well, it's pouring rain today, so I think I'll post the photos I took last night, when it was getting dark. I've jacked up the exposures a bit to compensate.

Overview:



Hinges:



Close-up of hinge pin from the side. Ugh, you can see where the oil I used has collected dirt (that was before I realized the pins were plastic; although it didn't seem to make the problem any worse -- or any better):

 

[irlboater]

My window sometimes "pops" when I open or close it but I have been using it everyday now for several months (I am on the Great Loop) and it is happening less frequently now. I never thought about fixing it. I have learned to live with it.

 

[Sunbeam]

My window sometimes "pops" when I open or close it but I have been using it everyday now for several months (I am on the Great Loop) and it is happening less frequently now. I never thought about fixing it. I have learned to live with it.

That sounds like what mine does, only it's every time and it's pretty stiff too. Good to know you've been using yours and nothing has broken (I was worried about that so have just left it closed). I'm going to try to fix mine and I'll keep the thread updated as any changes occur.

Cool to hear you are on The Great Loop!

 

[Sea Wolf]

Sunbeam-

Thanks for the photos!

What's that black spot on the bottom of the part of the hinge that's mounted to the window frame? (Has a clean spot next to it?

Is it from friction from the outer frame of the hinged window contacting the non-moveable half of the hinge on the frame when the window is opened?

Heaven forbid it would be so simple a binding!

You probably can't see in there when the window is opening, no?

Maybe put a apiece of paper or masking tape in there to check the clearance (used like plasti-gauge is used to check bearing clearances in automotive applications.)

If you crush the paper or tape when opening the window, it's too close/has too little clearance.

It would be all too easy to file down one of the surfaces if that's where the binding is occurring.

What's that cross-member that looks like a spring going from side to side between the hinges? Is it a section of spring steel designed to act as a catch on part of the outer hinge, shaped like a cam, to hold the window open once opened fully? (Could be I'm interpreting the photo wrong!)

Might be another binding point?

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

Hi Joe,

I think that's just dirt from the oil I used, then subsequently trailered the boat and road dust stuck to it. I've never had the window open all the way (and it doesn't look like anyone else ever has either), so probably not a wear spot. I probably cleaned that one spot reaching under there last time I washed the boat (and of course now I realize I need to get under there an do a better job).

My impression is that the sticking/creaking is coming from the pins/hinge interface (that's where I can hear it). The symptom comes right away when the window is opened - so only about a 1" gap at the bottom at that time. I believe it's possible for Delrin to swell, so my guess is that's what's happened and then was exacerbated by the window not having been opened for many years. However, I appreciate your input and I will inspect it all more closely. (Probably should have cleaned off the hinge before photographing it, but it was getting dark and I was feeling lazy.)

 

[Sea Wolf]

Sunbeam-

Well, if all else fails, you can always take out the entire window, including the frame, and send it back to /Diamond Sea-Glaze for a rebuild!

Joe. :lol: :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

True, although I'm hoping not to need a new window, or to remove the existing one. But good that the company is there if need be.

I just noticed this in your last post:

What's that cross-member that looks like a spring going from side to side between the hinges? Is it a section of spring steel designed to act as a catch on part of the outer hinge, shaped like a cam, to hold the window open once opened fully? (Could be I'm interpreting the photo wrong!)

I'm not sure I see where you mean, but as far as I can tell there is nothing "fancy" about the window. What I mean is that it just looks like chunks of aluminum in the shape of hinges, with a plastic pin running through the holes. There is a telescoping rod on the inside that keeps the window open, similar to the rods on the forehatch, although a bit less slickly designed. So I believe the window will (should) just "flop" closed without the rod engaged (presuming it is not sticking like mine).

 

[thataway]

Delrin is tough, but not always dimensionally stable. Water, and oils can cause it to swell. Temperatures also will cause change. But they are minimal. The low co-effecient of friction is one of the reasons this is used for hinge pins. It is hard to know what would have caused these to swell--which appears to be the issue.

 

[Sea Wolf]

If, indeed, it is simply a case of swollen hinge pins made of a somewhat "plastic" material, drilling out the center core of the hinge pins could relieve much of the swelling, reducing the binding enough that the pins don't need to be driven out and replaced………….= home free after carefully drilling only a few holes!

Sounds almost too good to be true! :lol:

Joe. :teeth :thup